The transcript of their conversation formed a chapter in Greville’s book ‘Just a Bus Stop in Hounslow: Brentford FC’s 2021/22 Season in the Premier League’. Bees United is grateful for Greville’s permission to reprint part of it here. Greville’s book is available on all good online booksellers including Amazon
Greville Waterman; You have been described lately as entertaining, enigmatic, likeable and have been shortlisted for the Premier League Manager of the Season Award. It is all a bit surreal, isn’t it?
Thomas Frank: In many ways yes. Surreal – mysterious – yes, I like that! Don’t tell that to my wife! It has been surreal, and that is a lot of flattering words. Yes, it is unthinkable. Of course, I am more and more aware but I think my biggest strength is that I am just myself, I’m just a normal bloke that loves football and of course studied a lot and got more and more experience and with you I am the same way as with my friends. Of course, I am not stupid, so there is 10% of privacy, but in general I am just myself.
All the players call you Thomas. That just doesn’t normally happen in football where the manager is called “gaffer” or “boss.”
I think Dean Smith was normally called “gaffer.” He is quite informal and a lovely guy, I really like him. So, when people asked me when I took over what I wanted to be called, I said “my name is Thomas, call me Thomas.” There’s a few, Ivan calls me “gaffer” but I think he is the only one of the English guys, the rest call me “Thomas.” The way I am as a person, of course I know I am in charge and I take the decisions and I have also got that 5% psychopath in me so I have that dark side in me, the temper, and I think that is important because you never reach this far if you don’t have that big determination or fire in your belly. You need to have something that drives you. I know 100%, that I have got that, but in general I think that I can speak to both the high and low in the same manner, I am just interested in them as a person. I think that is a big strength of mine and what I hate personally is if someone treats me better because I am the gaffer, instead of the cleaner. I notice that straight away and I do not say anything to them unless I am very close but it is just a little reminder for myself.
The only times you appeared to lose your temper in public was in both games against Wolves
Away at Wolves, I knew their manager was under pressure because they hadn’t won, and he has done a good job and is a good manager and all that, but I was irritated as it is very rare that I am not honest about how I see things, and I am not complaining too much about penalties and red cards unless the decision is completely wrong, so I want people to be honest the other way round, so that irritated me. The home game was a combination of a lot of things. We were in a bad spell. We worked so hard to do so many good things. We had just performed well against Manchester United and should 100% have got something out of that game, especially after the first half performance. Against Wolves, again, everything hit us. Two players clashing – how often does that happen? Both of them needed to be subbed off. Going 1-0 down in a game where we were a little bit above them in terms of performance, 1-0 down, coming back into the game at 1-1. A point at that stage would have been really good – not that we played for the point, then I think Jonas Lössl didn’t look that great on the goal. So, I thought “come on, give us something!” It is a long season, all that, and I am normally calm, but then I explode. I walked across to the ref with no intention to say anything to him, completely nothing and then João Moutinho was running to the ref saying “this guy kicked me, it’s a red card.” They’d just won, he’d scored a beautiful goal, he had played a good game. I just snapped. I said “What the fuck are you talking about. You were diving and rolling around, are you sure you haven’t got concussion?” I really went after him, and it sparked the fire. The ref gave me the yellow, which was completely fair, and then I turned around and I just went back and said “by the way, you can just give me another one!” How stupid is that! That cost me £8,000 and my wife is killing me. She is so furious. So, it was not the worst, there wasn’t any bad language, but it was because I was very aggressive towards him, so that is why he gave me the red card
One thing I admire is that there has been a consistency of message from you all through the season, is that conscious?
Yes, that is conscious. I think communication is key, internally and externally, and I really try to be as transparent as possible, so the things I am saying in public are the same as I say internally, there’s not too much different, a few bits, nothing to hide, for example, if I say the way I want to play before this season – defensive foundation, fitness and set pieces – they are the three key messages for the players when we met on the first day of preseason. And then I said that we need to be cool, brave and aggressive, I said that constantly before each game. The week building up to the Arsenal game I had a fantastic feeling, honestly, this is what I said to the players, “honestly I am going to be disappointed if we don’t beat Arsenal.” That was my feeling going into this game, because I just trust these boys so much.
At Chelsea you were very brave and surprised them. Against some of the other top teams sometimes it looked like it was more about damage limitation, was there a little bit of pragmatism at times?
Every game we have gone into aiming to win. Away to City at the Etihad we were lacking five players, and we played with an attack of Sergi Canós and Saman Ghoddos, as we were without three strikers. At Arsenal, you need to remember that there is an opponent and they played one of their best games. No doubt that we hurt them in the first game, they had something to prove, and when I saw them the week after, they were nowhere near that good. So, they hit an unbelievable level. We survived the first half, and I am convinced actually that they score after two minutes on a high-pressure thing, that was a poor goal to concede, and I agree that we did not hit the high level and sometimes you don’t hit the high level but, away to Liverpool – they are so fucking good – I remember they put us under pressure, but they didn’t create much and we created some chances too. We conceded right on half time and missed a great chance in the second half. I’m just saying it was narrow margins. And again, Man Utd, when we faced them there, we were magnificent in the first five minutes.
Was that move straight from the kick-off planned?
Yes, that was planned, but Man Utd clearly turned up and when Ronaldo chased back and made a sliding tackle I thought “OK, this is going to be difficult” because they have good players. Look what happened the following game, they went to Brighton and lost 4-0 and now they lost to Crystal Palace and I went “fxxx!”
What are your key memories and highlights of the season?
In no particular order. The Arsenal game, obviously, which will always be one of my career highlights. What a night, a full house, opening day, the whole world is watching a bus stop in Hounslow! And what an intro to the Premier League! Beat them 2-0 – fair and square. Grown men crying – you saw the footage after, I get goosebumps about it now. What a night! I remember I sat with Brian Riemer and Rasmus Ankersen after the game, around midnight and we got a good glass of red, and we said “cheers, well done boys” and I remember Rasmus said “I think this is probably going to be a top five win in the history of Brentford.” Chelsea, obviously, because they were the Champions League and World Club Cup winners, they played a full-strength side at Stamford Bridge, and we won fair and square. That’s, of course, mind-blowing. The West Ham game at home, for me, was a big moment, as it was the first time, I think, that we controlled the whole game against a team that was this close to going to the Europa League Final. We have done amazingly. Liverpool, of course. That was crazy.
How did you find your relationships with the other opposing managers and head coaches?
I am convinced that if I sat down with them one-to-one then we would have a lovely lunch or beer or two with them. Some of them I know better just by being here for so long. Moyes I have met a few times, he’s a fantastic person, same with Brendan Rodgers.
Tuchel was a bit grudging after both Chelsea games.
I don’t know him, personally. The first time I met him was this season. My view? I would have loved him to show more class after the first one. If I was in his shoes I would have said “Thomas, well done. We were fucking lucky today.” I would have said that if I was the top dog.
He pretty much said that we were lucky after the second game.
You are losing 4-1 – don’t even go there. So, I don’t know him. You always try to create the right story after the games, and so on, as you are under pressure. I would love to meet up with them after the game but it doesn’t often happen. So, I sat and had a drink with Moyes, Rodgers, Dean (Smith) of course as he is a good friend. I always say to them “come in after.” Patrick Vieira I have met a few times – he’s a good lad.
Do you think Brentford is the perfect club to manage given the way it is run?
Yes, I have said several times that we have one of the top three owners in the world. The only reason I have not put him number one is that I do not know everyone, so I need to give a little bit of credit to a few out there. Matthew is fantastic – vision, strategy, alignment, coolness, so never panic – always calm, which I like a lot. The relationship with Matthew, me and Phil is so close and good, we are on the same track. So, all that, plus then all the fantastic people down here at Jersey Road. Good people. Players we have recruited well in terms of persons, characters, which is the most important – of course, they need to be good footballers, but they also need to be good persons. I am pretty sure it is going to be difficult to find something else as good as this. Can I find a bigger club? Yes, of course there are bigger clubs out there, but I am doubting that I would get a better life in football besides Brentford. I am working 70 hours a week and I am not stressed but very busy and sometimes I am thinking I would love some freedom and all that but I love it in many, many ways.
Did you know we conceded the first goal in 24 games, and lost 18 of them, but when we scored first, we never lost? What can we do?
I heard about that stat. Score first more often! It’s a good point. It’s funny because we are very aware of the defensive side of the game. Hopefully that’s a thing we can twist and start faster.
Have you learned much about yourself this season?
I think I learn every season about myself. I have learned that – and I never thought I would say this – that I need a personal assistant to help me and give me more time to either think or relax – to be fresh. I have worked my way up and always done everything myself. Back in the days I videoed the games and did all that. Of course, I have learned to take a step back. Then I learned that if you have been in a certain league before, that helps. Obviously, it helps to learn the culture and how things work in a country but if you have football experience and leadership skills, I think that is the most important thing. Then you do well. We had one of the youngest squads with absolutely no Premier league experience – no players with any. I had nothing, the staff had nothing, but I just knew if the quality is there, the football person knowledge, leadership and strategy, then no problem. I think that is the biggest message.
So, will the emphasis next season still be on tactical flexibility, adapting to each game and who you play, set pieces, or will there be some little tweaks?
We always try to find little tweaks and things we can improve. I think it is important to understand who we are and what we have done well and not go too far away from that. I think defensive foundation is important, we need to be able to defend well, we defended much better than the two other promoted teams – big thing. Set pieces – big thing. Fitness – big thing. We need to outrun our opponents, and we did. We were measuring distance, which is less important, sprint distance, high intense runs distance and number of high intense runs. And these four parameters in many, many games it was 4-0, a lot of games it was 3-1, some it was 2-2. And then we measured all this, and at the end of the season we were top four in some, top 10 in sprinting distance because it is a little bit depending on how quick some of our players are.
Who ran the most?
Christian Norgaard. So that is a big foundation: again, defensive, set pieces, fitness and tactical flexibility are the things that I think are important for us.
How much is the way you play based on the Danish “Red Thread” method of ball retention and counter pressing?
No doubt that Morten Olsen is the one that has given me the biggest inspiration as a coach, ever. Of course, I then looked towards the other big coaches and learned from all of them, but he is the one I was closest to when I grew up and he took over the (Danish) national team in 2000. Morten was so far ahead of his time compared to everyone else. So, for me, the way he was very structured in the offensive game, I learned that a lot from him. In general, the offensive side of the game, also to retain the ball and keep it building up, and so on, and really dominate on the ball, he was unbelievable there. Then I got the high pressing and counter pressing, I got inspiration from especially Bielsa, back in the days, in 2008 the first time I studied him. So, all that comes together and then, you know, just more and more learning so that is how I see how a team should play.
Scandinavians are great. You told me that the last time we talked. Fantastic work ethic, speak better English than I do, and they just jell, they just seem the best.
I think Scandinavian people are relatively good to adapt. We are small countries in general so we need to be good to adapt and be innovative. Most of them have basic good values. Obviously, it is a market we know well. But I think in terms of what we want here, we always talk about attitude – confident but humble – I think they are good at that, hard work, all about performances and togetherness.
Nine of the Championship promotion winning squad started over 20 games in the Premier League and Mathias Jensen just missed out. Did that surprise you?
No, we identified three areas we needed to try to add a little bit more in terms of quality or depth in the squad. Yoane Wissa came in as we needed a winger/striker. We needed one more midfielder with slightly different abilities like Frank (Onyeka) with pressing abilities, and then we needed another centre back because we knew that we will play a back three. We never got the right back in, we looked for one, but we never found him, that’s why we stick to the back three, and then I changed. We played with a back four early in preseason but only because we lacked centre backs. Pontus and Kristoffer came back late, so we just lacked centre backs, but I knew that I wanted to play three centre backs.
It’s very hard to pick out players because they all did brilliantly.
I agree. The big thing is that they all played probably to a seven or eight out of 10 throughout the season. I knew that they were good enough, the Championship team, I knew that they could do well and we actually missed one of our best players all season – Josh Dasilva. So, I think that’s very impressive and I agree everyone performed very well.
Do you expect Josh to be fully fit next season?
Yes, I expect Josh to be fully fit next season, so that will be a fantastic asset.
We were a Bus Stop in Hounslow with no expectations. Next season is going to be different.
Yes. I think expectation is in a way, nice, because then we have done something good. I always try to look at it that way, because we performed. I will be disappointed if we stop running and working hard. I think that has been our biggest asset, and I will be really on top of that. My feeling is that we still have more to come from the squad, which is the second youngest in the League. There is a lot of development in each player in the team. I still believe we can build. I respect this league so much – it’s relentless, and we can finish anywhere from twentieth to seventh next year, but I believe we can go forward, but, of course, I know that anything can happen.
Is The Premier League a different type of relentlessness than the Championship? More mental pressure?
Mental I think, because the games are so tough. They need to be on it because one slight mistake they score. I think that’s a big thing. The games are so, so tight. In the Championship we knew, at least the last two years, we were one of the better sides, so if we performed seven out of ten, we knew we could still win a game. Now if we do not perform 100%, we lose.
Against Leeds, everyone was below par.
I agree, and that was a bad game for us, and they were bad as well. They barely had a chance until David made a big mistake. So, on a bad day we probably would have got a point.
In terms of next season Phil Giles says that the ambition is to become an average Premier League team. Would you agree with that?
I agree, that is the ambition.
Why have we had so many hamstring injuries?
Kristoffer has another hamstring injury but should be fit for the start of the season. It is crazy that we have had so many and we have had a big meeting about it and put some really good plans in plans to make sure that we avoid that many hamstring injuries. Charlie (Goode) we knew had a little bit of ongoing issues, then he was suddenly thrown in to play four games in a row and that was just maxing out the system. The big one was Kristoffer, who has had three hamstring injuries, I think. Sergi, Ethan, which surprised me, and Rico too. They should all be fine. It is an area where we are changing a few bits, both how we assess it, but also how we keep it strong enough.
Will the five substitutes rule change your thinking?
It is definitely something I put into my blueprint for next season, how we can use that in the best possible way. For example, at Everton we used all three subs and were very flexible and offensive. I think and hope I will use it.
Does that mean you want a bigger squad?
No, I think twenty plus three goalkeepers is a perfect amount for me, because everyone is close enough to get minutes.
Who do you expect to come to the fore next season?
I think that hopefully Josh Dasilva, I need to mention him because he’s the one we all expect to do a bit more and then I think there is something in Bryan Mbeumo we haven’t seen yet. I agree he should have had twenty points (goals and assists) and he had eleven. I think it is very positive that there is so much more potential to his game. He’s 22, he works unbelievably hard, massive pace, going in behind. Then there is decision making and some quality in the finishing and the final pass that we need to work hard on, and that he constantly needs to work on. I think he’s got the potential to be a top six player. I think Ivan will score more next season. I think it is a combination of he was obviously out for five games with injuries and Covid, and the Covid did him badly so he was bad in the following two or three games.
Will Sergi keep his shirt on next season?
I don’t know if you saw my reaction. Stupid. I just knew instantly when he took it off – already then, I thought we are down to ten fxxxxxx men! He’s playing left back against Raphinha, how fxxxxxx stupid is he?
Ivan did it against Burnley as well.
Still stupid. 85th minute, 1-0 up, he would never put himself in the position. I still think it was stupid, but it is less stupid. Sergi is emotional, but I don’t get why you took the shirt off.
Finally, what is your message for the fans?
The fans – fantastic. As I said in the stadium, they are fxxxxxx rock and roll, when we are on it. I really love the connection we have with them. I think when they have been travelling away in numbers, they have helped us massively, massively. You can always hear them singing and forcing us forward. They have got a massive impact. Very good. Let’s say we have been seven or eight out of ten, they can also improve. We need to make Brentford Community Stadium an unbelievably difficult place to go. It needs to be a fortress.
Greville Waterman notes:
Having spent the best part of an hour in his company, it is easy to see why Thomas Frank has been so successful. He is charismatic, passionate, driven, knowledgeable and inspiring, and also has a well-developed sense of humour. What particularly impressed me is how good a listener he is. He also possesses the rare ability to make the other person in the room feel special and important, as he gives you his full and undivided attention. He is an excellent communicator with an almost total recall for facts and incidents, but you can also see that he has a tough streak and a steely interior and he is certainly not a man to be trifled with.